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Arrr Bee's avatar

But have they? The first massacre of Jews by Palestinians in the Mandatory British Palestine era was in 1920, then followed like clockwork in 1921, 1929, 1936-1939, 1946-1948, long before the state of Israel. Later we saw the cross border attacks by Fedayeen 1948-1967, the 137 suicide bombings of the second intifada 2000-2005, and the October 7 2023 massacre. In between all of those, a constant hum of terrorism - lynchings, shootings, bombings, knife attacks, car ramming. What we see is that no matter how many times the Palestinians were offered an independent state, they kept rejecting it. They are stuck in a sunk cost fallacy, that surely the next massacre will send The Yahud running (to where? Dunno) and all that wasted time, blood and stolen economic development opportunity will have been worth it. The Free Palestine cult largely aligns with a large portion (if not majority) of the Palestinians on a goal of achieving a genocide and ethnic cleansing fod 7.7 million Israeli Jews.

I appreciate your activism, I agree that two independent states are the only practical solution, and that it’s pointless to expect either side to evaporate. I agree that the Free Palestine cult is excited to fight Israel to the last Palestinian. I agree they don’t care at all about the Palestinians, but rather use them like Arab autocrats as a distraction and excuse to massacre Jews. But I disagree that they aren’t aligned with many (maybe most) Palestinians.

John Coelho's avatar

The "pro Palestinian" idiots just hate Daddy. The West is Daddy, the manichaean source of all evil. Any negativity coming from anywhere else, just isn't important

Tom Ben-David's avatar

The first things that came to my mind were actually the Munich Olympics massacre and Entebbe as direct analogs to the supposed hijacking Hamza is describing. There’s a lot of memory and lived experience one has to work against to convince Israelis the primary goal of the Palestinian Cause is to destroy Israel by violent means — including attacking Jews globally — rather than to establish self governance for Palestinians to live in peace with their neighbors.

Eli's avatar

There are plenty of Palestinian ideologues and true-believers, but that doesn't give them a right to define, once and for all, what it means to be Palestinian -- any more than Bibi winning elections means he defines what it is to be Israeli or Jewish.

Arrr Bee's avatar

Ah, so it's not defined by reality, it's defined by aspiration. You think you know best for the Palestinians what they should be doing, so let's ignore what they actually did, and declare your imaginary version of them to be the "real" one. I seriously don't know what people mean with this line of reasoning. It's a really weird kind of self-delusion.

Eli's avatar

No, my point is that they're all real even though they do different things. Hamas and Fatah are complete antizionist ideologues.

Fritz N. de Mendonça's avatar

How many jews has the Palestinian population killed and How many Palestinian victims Israel has made?

The other thing is that there cannot be so many Israeli Jews. Most are immigrants or immigrants descendants... Just like Benjamin Mileikowski. Not that there is difference between the human value of each, but it is important remembering that they came to the land, they are not from there.

Salusa Secundus Snape's avatar

“What we see is that no matter how many times the Palestinians were offered an independent state, they kept rejecting it.”

Really? And what were those offers? Was it anything even close to the 1947 (?) borders, or just a series of bantustans?

I doubt very much you could even define Israel’s offers, much less defend the fairness of them.

Arrr Bee's avatar

As you correctly point out, had Palestinians not been excited about the prospect of a genocide of Israeli Jews, they would have had an independent state voted into existence by the UN on November 29 1947, just like Israel, but with more territory. The original sin of the Palestine "liberation" movement is their 105 year-old genocidal project of massacring and ethnically cleansing all the Jews from Israel. We all saw exactly what Palestinians and the Free Palestine cult mean by "liberation" through the celebration of Hamas massacres.

When a political entity starts a war with genocidal intentions, it cannot complain about lost territory. Germany today is smaller than Nazi Germany, which is smaller than Imperial Germany. What the Palestinians were offered in 1967, 2000 and onward was the exact same territory conquered by the Arab Republic of Egypt and the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan during their invasion of Israel, when both ethnically cleansed it of Jews. Neither created a Palestinian state, nor did the Palestinians ever agitate for a state in that 19 year span of their occupation by other Arab countries. The Palestinians would have had the most land if they chosen peace in 1937, less so after 1947, and less so after being given Oslo A&B territories then repaying that gesture with the 138 suicide bombings of the Second Intifada. The Palestinians have the least amount of land now after launching their brilliant October 7 2023 war, cheered on by moronic Free Palestine cult members like yourself. The main reason Palestinians didn't take all previous peace offers is because they can't let go of their desired to eliminate Israel after getting an independent state. Israel calling them out on their "right of return" bullshit was why they walked away, not the size of the territory. They, and you, simply can't stand the thought of a sovereign, independent Jewish-majority state.

I doubt you understand much about the conflict. Seeing you misuse "bantustan" in dozens of comments marks you as a someone who thinks his decolonization studies classes made him clever, but you aren't. Disingenuous assholes like you were adopting the genocidal maximalist Hamas position decades ago, to the detriment of the Palestinians. You're one of those tough guys who are willing to fight to the last Palestinian from afar. To solve this conflict in a peaceful way we should all be Zionists. https://www.buzzsprout.com/2221234

Shulamis's avatar

Well said, Arrr Bee! One of my first Substack co-commentators ❤️ I’m glad we’re still fighting the good fight.

“Disingenuous assholes like you” 😂👍

Salusa Secundus Snape's avatar

I notice that you did not even pretend to outline the “deals” that have been offered to the Palestinians.

Arrr Bee's avatar

That is a dumb bit of sealioning. I linked a podcast that covers exactly that in about 31 episodes written and narrated by one of the negotiators, so now you can do the work.

Salusa Secundus Snape's avatar

Hmmm... Should I listen to 31 episodes of a podcast only to find out that a transdimensional superbeing is the rationale for their justification for a genocide?

Arrr Bee's avatar

LOL on “genocide”.

The Palestinians would have had a state in 1948 if they weren’t more excited about achieving genocide than an independent state. 77 years later and not much has changed.!

Charles Knapp's avatar

When you speak of “1947 borders”, are you referring to the UN’s non-binding partition resolution that the Arab countries unanimously rejected along with the Palestinian leadership? Why not go back to the Peel Commission which offered the Arabs even more and was rejected?

In fact, the only partition place for Palestine that was implemented was in 1923 when the UK, acting as Mandatory Power, made an offer the Palestinians couldn’t refuse (as it was imposed) by closing off 78% of Mandatory Palestine to Jewish immigration and settlement, and placing a Hashemite client (recently expelled from Arabia) on the throne thus birthing today’s Jordan.

Having pocketed 78% of the Mandate land, the Arabs wanted it all, mostly because this was viewed as divinely mandated as part of Islam’s eventual world conquest. Until that theology changed and the rights and history of the Jewish people are acknowledged, there will be no second Palestinian state.

Salusa Secundus Snape's avatar

“ Having pocketed 78% of the Mandate land, the Arabs wanted it all, mostly because this was viewed as divinely mandated as part of Islam’s eventual world conquest. Until that theology changed and the rights and history of the Jewish people are acknowledged, there will be no second Palestinian state.”

With the amount of brass it takes to imply that it is the Arabs and not messianic Jews who are motivated by visions of “divine mandate” you could found your own orchestra!

Charles Knapp's avatar

Sorry, but that’s the history. You can remain denial, that’s your right. But it won’t change the reality.

And, if you were interested in learning, the Zionist leaders were overwhelmingly secular and until the 70s, the economy was effectively socialist. They were not “messianic” in any sense. For them, a Jewish state was to be a last refuge in their historical homeland.

Salusa Secundus Snape's avatar

The 70s were a loooooonnng time ago, brother. So all you are doing is confirming that for my entire lifetime Israel has been as obnoxiously religious as Iran has been for nearly as long.

The fact is, the undergirding philosophy of Zionism has never been secular. The foundational land claim that Zionists make is supernatural in its conception, so even the most secular Israeli is animated by hocus-pocus whether they admit it or not.

On top of that, the current stripe of far-right Israeli is motivated by a genetic/nationalist imperative that any Aryan would recognize, meaning that even the “less” religious breed of Israelis are basically pagan, and not the product of the Western Enlightenment.

As for “historical homelands”, the day I hear a Zionist American weep for the dispossessed Indians of North America the same way they sing the blues for the Jews is the day I will be able to take that argument seriously.

Charles Knapp's avatar

What a deeply unserious and ill-informed response.

At least now, every reader knows you as someone whose confident assertions are inversely proportional to knowing the topic on which you’re pronouncing.

Chet S's avatar

By 1970 the Israelis had been subject to seven decades of Arab terror aimed at Jewish extinction in the Levant, but I guess ragheads are the only ones who get to radicalize

Eli's avatar

Guy, they cheer "Khaybar ya Yahoud" at demonstrations and their major political parties all put Islamic divine mandate talk in party platforms and proposed national constitutions. They're telling everyone out loud they view Palestine as an integral part of an Arab-Islamic empire conquered by divine mandate under the early Caliphs.

Salusa Secundus Snape's avatar

Bro, the Jews call themselves "the Chosen People", consider Israel "The Holy Land", and at least half of the government are specifically religious fanatics eager to rebuild the Magic Temple, rename Israel to Judea and Samaria, and also support legalizing the rape of Palestinian prisoners and where noose pins.

They are villains to the core. Can't imagine why Hamas hates them.

Chet S's avatar

The Jews don’t call themselves “the chosen people”, retard

Eli's avatar

Congratulations on establishing that the irredentist right wing of both countries has religious motivations!

Nick's avatar

Don't start fights you can't win.

Salusa Secundus Snape's avatar

Remember you said that after Iran levels Tel Aviv ;)

Nick's avatar

We just saw exactly how that fight plays out. Iranian air defence decimated, missile strikes all over the country and the mullahs did nothing but whine and shake their fists.

Your threats are cute

Arrr Bee's avatar

Israel had a record breaking year of tech wins - companies sold for over $15B and tech investment. I was just in Tel Aviv, not sure what universe you're living in, but Narnia sure is fun this time of year. Meanwhile in Tehran: https://substack.com/@mattosborne/note/p-182879465

Nick's avatar

Cope harder 🤣 tel-aviv is doing great.

While Iran is torturing & executing its own people by the thousands.

Ofc you'd side with the islamists, who would kill you as an infidel. Enjoy being a useful idiot for an ideology that hates you

Chet S's avatar

Why should they receive the 1947 borders when they rejected that settlement in 1947?

The offers get worse and worse because the Palestinians respond to the offers with warmaking

Nicola Staadt's avatar

A well explained piece highlighting important distinctions.

Robin's avatar

I am a Palestinian from Khan Younis, a city in the Gaza Strip, Palestine, and I agree with the pro-Palestine activists and not with with the anti-Palestinian, pro-occupation and genocide Hamza Howidy. The pro-Palestine activists are overwhelmingly supported by the Palestinian people, and are largely responsible for turning the global public opinion, inclusding in the US, to be pro-Palestine and anti-"Israel". This Hamza Howidy guy is just a self-hating, resentful social malcontent who has no traction or following in Palestinian society and is only taken seriously by out-of-touch-with-reality Western elitists such as you and your likes.

HP's avatar

So non Palestinians hijack your narrative, do things that you then have to apologize for, and tell you what's best for you as tho you haven't lived it you're whole life?

Congrats, you're Jewish.

Eli's avatar

Well... yeah. If there's any ground for peacemaking, it's that shared experience of being treated as a disposable cultural and geopolitical proxy.

HP's avatar

Maybe when they actually notice the similarities.

Clay Friedman's avatar

This was really well said. On top of the antisemitism that runs rampant in the western pro-Palestine movement, I've always been disturbed by the way that they co-opt the Palestinians' struggle and project their own (largely unrelated) pet-issues onto it, often to the direct detriment of the Palestinian people

Socratic Debate's avatar

“Long-term Planning for Israel’s Destruction

As early as 2014, Hamas leadership articulated a comprehensive plan known as the “Promise of the Hereafter Battle,” framed as a final confrontation intended to destroy Israel and reshape the Middle East. This concept was accompanied by ideological preparation, institutional development, and detailed military planning. Hamas leaders openly described the conflict as existential and religious in nature, not territorial or negotiable.

By 2016, senior Hamas figures—both from Gaza and from the external leadership—were reportedly convening to formalize a “Liberation Strategy” that envisioned the elimination of Israel within a defined timeframe. These discussions coincided with a period in which Hamas dramatically expanded its military capabilities: establishing a domestic weapons manufacturing industry, constructing hundreds of kilometers of tunnels, training elite assault units, and preparing for a large-scale, multi-front attack.

Israeli leaders later publicly described Hamas’s operational concept in detail: massive rocket fire on Israeli cities; simultaneous infiltration by land, sea, air, and tunnel; the use of elite forces to seize Israeli communities; and mass hostage-taking to shatter Israeli morale. This operational blueprint closely matched the tactics ultimately employed on October 7, 2023.

Genocidal Ideology and Post-Israel Governance Planning

Hamas leaders and allied figures framed the “Promise of the Hereafter” not merely as a military campaign, but as a civilizational project. Conferences and public statements discussed governance structures, land redistribution, and property transfer in a future Palestine from which Israel would no longer exist. Jewish presence in the land was depicted as temporary and illegitimate, with some Hamas-aligned figures predicting or advocating for mass Jewish flight, expulsion, or evacuation during or after the conflict.” Dougie Fresh

Sharon Katz's avatar

I always claimed that people who wish to understand conflicts like and including the Palestinian conflict should read Michael Kulhaus by Heinrich Von Kleist. I strongly recommend.

Udaravadi Aldeko's avatar

None of these anti-Western citizens in the West want to move to authoritarian regimes they embrace as utopia. I wonder why? 🤔

By Emmy C. Miller's avatar

This is so true and sorely under-reported on. The far left has hijacked the Palestinian movement, while simultaneously distancing themselves from Palestinians (I live in Ann Arbor). They are aggressive and show up to agitate. They weave in their feminist, Marxist, and queer agendas while chanting intifada and wearing kufiyehs to unrelated “protests”. They’re a nuisance and a growing threat across this country that attracts huge media attention and disdain so people associate them with the Palestinian cause. They larped as superfans of Burkina Faso until they criminalized homosexuality then were the loudest to condemn.

Thank you for writing this piece. The many Christians and many many conservatives are our true allies 🤍

Home Steader's avatar

Glass the whole place.

Stourley Kracklite's avatar

It’s an interesting point of view that non-Palestinian (presumably western and white, because who else would put Turtle Island in their renegade group name? It sounds like they met at summer camp in Maine) violence is dangerously unproductive. Does that mean Palestinian violence is also dangerously unproductive? Just trying to learn the board game rules here.

Salusa Secundus Snape's avatar

You have every right to criticize people who deign to act in Palestine’s name (although I find the idea that this “Turtle Island” thing was an actual bomb plot risable), but it is a little smug of you to poo-poo the overwhelmingly peaceful protests that have occurred around the world on Gaza’s behalf since 10/7. These have put a critical spotlight on Israel more effectively than any movement in the past decade.